The Power of Presence - Kim Nicol, Life & Leadership Coach, Host - New Manager Podcast
Summary:
Kim Nicol, a life coach specializing in mindfulness and leadership, shares her insights on helping people see different perspectives and creating a calm and safe environment. Kim coaches first time managers and part of her coaching is selling them on how they can reframe a different approach. She discusses reframing resistance in fitness and yoga, as well as the importance of presence and appreciation in everyday interactions. Kim also offers advice on having difficult conversations and advocating for professional development within organizations.
You'll unlock tips like the power of the phrase "I'm Glad You're Here". You'll learn a way to move others through intentional acts of calmness. And you'll learn how a yoga teacher sells people who hate pushups!
Key Moments:
00:00 Reframing Resistance and Overcoming Fears
06:56 Creating a Calm and Safe Environment
10:57 Mindfulness and Presence in Everyday Interactions
15:23 Having Difficult Conversations with Empathy and Transparency
22:08 Advocating for Professional Development and Growth
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Transcript
All right.
Alex Smith:Hello, hello, hello.
Alex Smith:Welcome to another episode of the Sell By Being Human podcast.
Alex Smith:I'm your host, Alex Smith, and this is the podcast where we learn from people from all walks of life who sell things through the lens of human connection.
Alex Smith:I think we can learn human skills from people all around us.
Alex Smith:And this is the place where I'll bring the very best of those people together.
Alex Smith:And I have one of those people on today.
Alex Smith:I just knew when I met this person at the Transform conference in Las Vegas in March.
Alex Smith:And if you don't know what that is, if you're connected at all to people, to hr, to learning and development, anything around new technologies in the workplace, you want to be at this thing.
Alex Smith:It's just a really creative, unique conference, I think, and just intentionally set up for connections to happen.
Alex Smith:And that's where I literally met this person at, I think, a breakfast.
Alex Smith:And we just, you know, quickly connected with one of her colleagues and just kept it going throughout the conference and after.
Alex Smith:This person has had a career in coaching, learning and development, coaching new managers and running programs from new managers.
Alex Smith:She's led a career at different programs throughout lots of different organizations.
Alex Smith:She actually runs a podcast.
Alex Smith:I love the topic.
Alex Smith:Just the New manager podcast.
Alex Smith:So just a podcast for people that, you know, sometimes fall into being managers.
Alex Smith:Maybe they were that this is their first time being managers.
Alex Smith:So, like, how do you get that training?
Alex Smith:Where do you go?
Alex Smith:Her podcast is the place.
Alex Smith:And finally, you know, she's somebody that now, you know, coaches, teams and leadership execs and managers alike.
Alex Smith:I'm so, so, so pleased to welcome none other than Kim Nichol to the podcast.
Alex Smith:Welcome, Kim.
Kim Nichol:Thank you, Alex.
Kim Nichol:I'm so glad to be here with you.
Alex Smith:Yeah, me as well.
Alex Smith:You know, Kim, I knew, like, just in talking to you, just, you know, your focus with, like, with developing people that are newly in a seat of.
Alex Smith:Of like a manager role.
Alex Smith:They're leading people and just even coaching.
Alex Smith:We've had a lot of coaches on this, and some people are like, okay, how is a manager selling something?
Alex Smith:Even if they're not a sales manager necessarily, they're just.
Alex Smith:They're a leader of people and they're thrust into this role and kind of, what are those skills?
Alex Smith:And typically it's like, hey, if you're successful in your role, then, okay, the next place to go is in managing people.
Alex Smith:And that's not always, like, the best formula necessarily, but, you know, certainly you have to connect with the people, you know, that you're working for in your team.
Alex Smith:And there's A lot of skills that are very similar.
Alex Smith:And there's ways that you have to, you know, sell your clients on working with you.
Alex Smith:There's ways that managers have to sell their teams on wanting to work with them.
Alex Smith:So, Kim, you mentioned, you know, your boyfriend kind of helping you see things in a different way.
Alex Smith:How did it look like, you know, from the fitness point of view, you know, where.
Alex Smith:Where did you see some of those changes take place in other people?
Alex Smith:Like when you were.
Alex Smith:I'm sure you saw like, you.
Alex Smith:You were.
Alex Smith:It's probably easy to see when people resist you saying, hey, like, let's, you know, think about this.
Alex Smith:And they're like, no, Kim, I know my body was.
Alex Smith:Is.
Alex Smith:Is what I'm trying to fix here.
Alex Smith:Like, just help me fix my body.
Alex Smith:And you kind of have to, like, know, want to give them what they want, but then you also, you.
Alex Smith:You can't just tell them to do something a different way.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:You have to kind of balance giving them what they want with also having them see a different perspective.
Alex Smith:So where did you see some of those, like, aha.
Alex Smith:Moments take place with people from, like, you were yoga teacher.
Alex Smith:So tell me where you saw maybe some of those subtle things that people did that go.
Alex Smith:Made them go, you know what?
Alex Smith:I don't need to hold on to this.
Alex Smith:Or this is.
Alex Smith:This makes sense, Kim.
Kim Nichol:So one of my favorite reframes.
Kim Nichol:There are actually two that I'll share with you.
Kim Nichol:One is a lot of folks have a high resistance to pushups, and I am one of those people.
Kim Nichol:Ever since I was a kid, push ups, I always felt like I failed at them.
Kim Nichol:I never felt competent at them.
Kim Nichol:They always really challenged me.
Kim Nichol:So knowing that when people hear the word push up, they immediately feel the resistance.
Kim Nichol:They start to get anxious about it and they start to already think, oh, I can't do that.
Kim Nichol:I don't like that.
Kim Nichol:The way I would cue people into it is I'd break it down real small and I'd say, well, first we're just going to come to hands and knees.
Kim Nichol:Tabletop.
Kim Nichol:Yes.
Kim Nichol:You've got it.
Kim Nichol:Amazing.
Kim Nichol:You're doing so good.
Kim Nichol:Okay, now maybe extend the legs out.
Kim Nichol:Great.
Kim Nichol:Now you're in a plank.
Kim Nichol:Incredible.
Kim Nichol:And now here's what we're going to do.
Kim Nichol:We're going to do an elbow bend.
Kim Nichol:So everyone bend your elbows.
Kim Nichol:And then people could bend the elbows.
Kim Nichol:Like, I can do that.
Kim Nichol:So it's steps of success all along the way.
Kim Nichol:And then I'd offer as an option.
Kim Nichol:Now, if you're.
Kim Nichol:If you really want to unbend the elbows, go ahead and straighten the arms.
Kim Nichol:And the result of straightening the arms was it would create that push up experience.
Kim Nichol:And all of a sudden it no longer felt like that high resistance.
Kim Nichol:I don't like this.
Kim Nichol:I can't do this.
Kim Nichol:I'm not good at it.
Kim Nichol:Now, tapping into the curiosity of, well, let's find out what I can do.
Kim Nichol:Let's do some of it.
Kim Nichol:Let's feel successful at every little step.
Kim Nichol:And at the very least, I'm really good at bending my elbows so I can do that.
Kim Nichol:So it was really neat to start to see that shift with people.
Kim Nichol:When there's resistance drops, there's now that openness of, well, let's find out.
Kim Nichol:Let's try that.
Kim Nichol:So that was one and then the other one was in my class, we often did a lot of squats, so there was lots of heat and lots of tremors in the legs and in the low body.
Kim Nichol:And I'd say, okay, you know that feeling in your body when you're working really hard and you feel like you're gonna die?
Kim Nichol:And they'd say, yes, I feel like I'm dying.
Kim Nichol:I'd say, no, this is your body telling you how alive you are.
Kim Nichol:You are so alive right now.
Kim Nichol:This is your body telling you that you're strong because the wobbly feeling is how you build strength.
Kim Nichol:And all of a sudden, instead of feeling like the wobbliness was an indicator of weakness, now they're like, no, that makes sense.
Kim Nichol:I can see that.
Kim Nichol:That wobbliness is a feeling of, oh, that's my body building more strength in me.
Kim Nichol:And that also then started to shift the resistance and helped to create more of that feeling of enthusiasm for.
Kim Nichol:For doing the thing that was hard, but was also aligned with why they were there in the first place.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:Wow.
Alex Smith:You know, like that.
Alex Smith:Yeah, it makes me think like, I never got into gyms, really working out hard.
Alex Smith:I did stuff in high school, but then, you know, just, I was like, maybe six years ago, seven, something like that.
Alex Smith:I'm like, I need to do something.
Alex Smith:And I saw someone that's like, look, if you can do, you know, any of these things on Instagram is like, I'll get.
Alex Smith:I'll donate money to charity.
Alex Smith:And they were like, one sit up, one push up, one burp.
Alex Smith:It was just like one or two.
Alex Smith:And for every one you send me, you know, I'll donate a dollar or something.
Alex Smith:And I'm like, if I can't do this, then I'll never do it, you know?
Alex Smith:And then he's like, you know, and then when you start following him and this guy we're talking about is Jesse Itzler from Build you'd Life Resume.
Alex Smith:And he's done tons of endurance challenges.
Alex Smith:And he's like, you know, why not?
Alex Smith:Like, okay, you've never.
Alex Smith:How do you get off the couch and start running a marathon?
Alex Smith:Right?
Alex Smith:You don't do it overnight.
Alex Smith:Just run for five minutes, you know, run for five, walk for five.
Alex Smith:And.
Alex Smith:Or even just, you know, a couple minutes, walk for two or three, run for two or three.
Alex Smith:And it's like, can you do this little thing?
Alex Smith:Like, forget about running a mar.
Alex Smith:Like, don't even.
Alex Smith:That's not even your goal.
Alex Smith:Your goal is just to, like, you said, bend your arms, do this next thing.
Alex Smith:Can you do this little thing?
Alex Smith:And you're thinking, why?
Alex Smith:Why?
Alex Smith:Okay, yeah, sure, I can do that little thing.
Alex Smith:What's that?
Alex Smith:Well, yeah, over time, though, like, you're saying, do you know that feeling?
Alex Smith:Oh, when.
Alex Smith:Now that feeling comes, you know, that it's not like, in a negative way, in a pain way, but it's like you're looking forward to it coming because you're, like, knowing, okay, now, like, I can maybe do one more where it's telling me I'm preparing myself.
Alex Smith:So it's interesting how, like, the, the concept of a reframe in that way, it's.
Alex Smith:It's.
Alex Smith:It's using it again.
Alex Smith:And then you said connected to why they were there in the first place, why they were there to get, you know, kind of lose weight, get stronger, all that.
Alex Smith:Well, that's your body telling you you're doing those things.
Alex Smith:So, like, those.
Alex Smith:Those things.
Alex Smith:So that's interesting.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:You know, when you're, you know, like, Kim, can you talk at all about, like, some of these, like, skills that I think I see in you, you know, this ability to keep people calm in the face of, like, you know, kind of like, you know, whether it's at a gym, whether it's in a managerial coaching setting, we'll talk about how this shows up in your coaching clients.
Alex Smith:But these skills of, you know, helping people feel at ease and safe, are there people that you think you learn them from?
Alex Smith:Are there think that there's situations that shaped you in a way to do those, to kind of hone these skills?
Alex Smith:Because, you know, these.
Alex Smith:These aren't easy.
Alex Smith:You know, some people think they're.
Alex Smith:They're innate.
Alex Smith:I feel like they're things that we can all learn from those around us.
Alex Smith:Can you point to anybody or situations in Your life, do you think, helped you be able to be acutely aware of, you know, what people are feeling and, you know, keeping people safe and calm and that sort of thing?
Alex Smith:In that way, yes.
Kim Nichol:I'll give you a very specific context and I also want to share with you and with your listeners a specific practice that you can do.
Kim Nichol:You can try it out today and choose a situation that's kind of a normal everyday moment.
Kim Nichol:So you might be in line at the grocery store.
Kim Nichol:If you're traveling, try this at the airport when you're surrounded by people who have a sense of urgency and maybe a little stress.
Kim Nichol:Try this at work.
Kim Nichol:So the technique specifically is to, in your mind, just think this thought, I'm glad you're here.
Kim Nichol:When you see someone, think that in your mind, I'm glad you're here.
Kim Nichol:It has this calming effect because for you, it creates a sense of presence, a sense of appreciation, a sense of welcoming.
Kim Nichol:And the way I learned this, and it's been astonishing, it seems so simple.
Kim Nichol:But honestly, just try it and see what happens.
Kim Nichol:It's this really interesting effect.
Kim Nichol:I learned this really, this became clear to me several years ago when I was a hospice volunteer.
Kim Nichol:And one of the really interesting things about hospice, so we're all going to die one day.
Kim Nichol:That's something that we all get to do.
Kim Nichol:I feel like if we're lucky, we get to have a hospice environment which is specifically designed to provide comfort and ease as life starts to unwind itself.
Kim Nichol:And when I was a hospice volunteer, it's such an interesting experience because there's nothing there to feel fix.
Kim Nichol:And if you're a very solutions oriented person, then this is going to be a different kind of thing.
Kim Nichol:Right.
Kim Nichol:And the role of being in hospice as a volunteer is not to fix anything.
Kim Nichol:It's not to understand someone's diagnosis or why they're there.
Kim Nichol:It's simply to be present with them, to provide a sense of connection and this sense of appreciation, like, I'm glad you're here.
Kim Nichol:You're a human, I'm a human, we get to have this time together and there's no conversation required.
Kim Nichol:There's nothing that needs to happen here.
Kim Nichol:It's an incredibly profound moment of appreciation and presence and just enjoying being with someone.
Kim Nichol:And what occurred to me when I had that experience is that that's also what we do with babies, right?
Kim Nichol:If we're with babies or little kids, you know, we're not there for the conversation, right?
Kim Nichol:We're not there to like get something from them.
Kim Nichol:We're simply with this being with this person, even if they're a tiny little baby, and we're thinking, wow, welcome.
Kim Nichol:I'm so glad you're here.
Kim Nichol:What an amazing thing that we get to be together right now.
Kim Nichol:And so this sense of, oh, that's kind of underneath all of it.
Kim Nichol:That's how we arrive on the planet.
Kim Nichol:And I think if we're lucky, that's how we get to end our time on the planet.
Kim Nichol:And what's nice is that we can also bring that same quality of attention into these everyday moments.
Kim Nichol:And because we're humans, that also means that our emotions tend to radiate out.
Kim Nichol:You know, if you walk into a room with really stressed people, we start to feel stressed.
Kim Nichol:Also, if, you know, the person when they walk into the room, everyone kind of lights up.
Kim Nichol:It's like, oh, hey, Alex is here.
Kim Nichol:Oh, it's so great to see him.
Kim Nichol:We have that effect on each other.
Kim Nichol:And so we can kind of tune into and be intentional about what is the quality of attention and the effect I want to bring into this room, whether it's a physical room or a virtual room or into, you know, a relationship or a conversation.
Alex Smith:You know, like, just as I hear you were talking, like, I'm just thinking of situations where I could have done that.
Alex Smith:And, you know, my first, like, you know, physical reaction was like, what if, like, you know, someone's yelling at you?
Alex Smith:Or what if someone's at the airport and they're, like, super stressed?
Alex Smith:But, like.
Alex Smith:And just saying, like, you know, there's probably situations where that might be hard, but if you just did it, your brain is like, you know, even if you can't, like, you know, if they're being frustrated at you, maybe they're even being rude to you.
Alex Smith:If you're just saying, I'm glad you're here.
Alex Smith:You know, you're.
Alex Smith:You can't help but think, like, okay, like, again, like you said in the beginning, like, we all kind of want the same things.
Alex Smith:We all want to be, you know, respected and loved and cared for and listened to and valued and all those different things.
Alex Smith:And it's like, no matter what, like, we all have those days where we're.
Alex Smith:We ourselves are, you know, that person, that stress, that person on the other.
Alex Smith:Maybe we don't act the same way, but, like, we still feel that same way, you know?
Alex Smith:And so by just saying you're glad.
Alex Smith:Yeah, that is so pro.
Alex Smith:It's.
Alex Smith:It's so.
Alex Smith:I don't know why I'm, you know, it took me, you know, 42 years to learn it or whatever.
Alex Smith:But, yeah, it's.
Alex Smith:Yeah, I imagine that, like, you know, it's funny because, like, you're the second person.
Alex Smith:The person we had on before this Sunny.
Alex Smith:She.
Alex Smith:Her first job out of college was a hospice nurse.
Alex Smith:And the things that she learned were just so profound.
Alex Smith:And she was talking about how she sold people and people that were very resistant to wanting to be helped and people even in dementia.
Alex Smith:But, like, when people sit with you and when she would care for people and even just say, just tell people, I'm going to open your hands.
Alex Smith:I'm going to wash your hands.
Alex Smith:A woman that hadn't opened her hands for a couple weeks and was very dirty and probably itchy.
Alex Smith:And I'm going to.
Alex Smith:This is what I'm going to do.
Alex Smith:I'm doing it because of this.
Alex Smith:I'm here.
Alex Smith:You might not know.
Alex Smith:And she was talking to her as if she was, know, totally, you know, had all of her faculties.
Alex Smith:And then she just began to kind of open her hands and slowly just, you know, by what she was doing.
Alex Smith:Like you.
Alex Smith:And that goes to, like, you just sitting there with somebody and caring for them as if.
Alex Smith:Yeah, again, they're not trying to fix anything.
Alex Smith:They're just with you, Somebody to sit with you, to be with you.
Alex Smith:Um, I've heard, sometimes heard.
Alex Smith:I mean, the quote.
Alex Smith:It's one of my favorite sales quotes.
Alex Smith:Is sales something you do to someone?
Alex Smith:It's something you do for and with someone.
Alex Smith:Anthony in Arena.
Alex Smith:And it's making me think of that quote in my head and some of these stories.
Alex Smith:But I'm beginning to think hospice care is one of the most unknown sales positions in connecting with people that there is.
Alex Smith:Because you're the second person that's pointed to that kind of experience.
Kim Nichol:Yeah, I mean, I definitely think anyone who feels curious or called to volunteer or work in that space, there's so much to be gained and learned from that experience of being a human with other people in such a unique context.
Kim Nichol:You know, and the other thing that you.
Kim Nichol:That you said just now that I wanted to share on too, is.
Kim Nichol:And especially in the workplace.
Kim Nichol:So one question I get a lot from folks is, you know, I met this new manager.
Kim Nichol:They have to give feedback to someone and they get really defensive and I'm afraid to give them feedback or I'm so reluctant to have this conversation because I know they're going to get defensive and it might be their manager or it might be someone on their team or it might be someone that they work with.
Kim Nichol:And there's this Fear of if I bring this up or if I have to give them this news that they don't want, they're going to get real spiky.
Kim Nichol:And in that context, it's kind of.
Kim Nichol:It's sort of similar.
Kim Nichol:Right.
Kim Nichol:We want to still have that sense of calming effect.
Kim Nichol:But if you're feeling anxious about it, the other way you can think about it is I like to imagine this person is like a puffer fish, and the thing they're really good at is getting spiky when they feel scared.
Kim Nichol:And so if they're feeling impatient, scared, whatever, they're just going to puff up like a puffer fish.
Kim Nichol:So your job is not to prevent them from puffing up and getting spiky and defensive.
Kim Nichol:It's to realize they're probably going to do that.
Kim Nichol:That's fine.
Kim Nichol:That's the thing that they do.
Kim Nichol:They're really good at it.
Kim Nichol:And I still need to have this conversation with them anyways.
Kim Nichol:But now I can do it from a place that's less reactive and less worried about how they're going to respond.
Kim Nichol:So you're still able to maintain this connection without feeling bad about them getting reactive or spiky or defensive about the thing you need to say, yeah, let's.
Alex Smith:Talk about that because.
Alex Smith:Okay, so tell everyone, for those that maybe don't know about your background, kind of, how did you get into what you're doing today?
Alex Smith:And, you know, in the work and what are you.
Alex Smith:What are you doing today in what you do with your business?
Kim Nichol:Yeah, so I'm a life coach, and my specialty is in mindfulness and leadership and how to be a more effective manager.
Kim Nichol:But what's interesting is that I typically work with people who seek me out because they want to be good at managing, and they realize it's a very different job from whatever it is they're good at.
Kim Nichol:So you might be really good at sales, but managing a sales team is a different job.
Kim Nichol:You might be a really good designer, but managing a team of designers, that's a different job.
Kim Nichol:And so what's.
Kim Nichol:What's interesting is that it's a little bit different than often how it works internally, where an organization says, oh, you're a manager.
Kim Nichol:We're going to give you this training.
Kim Nichol:We need you to.
Kim Nichol:And you're lucky if the organization does, because most organizations are like, you're promoted, here's your job.
Alex Smith:Get after it.
Kim Nichol:Just go figure it out.
Kim Nichol:There's often not a lot of resources available, especially at the early stage of a leadership journey.
Kim Nichol:It's just A really hard, you know, time to support people.
Kim Nichol:So I got into this because I realized it's such an unmet need.
Kim Nichol:It's so overlooked.
Kim Nichol:And I thought, there's a better way to do this.
Kim Nichol:You know, like, my career journey has had a number of stages.
Kim Nichol:I have worked in marketing.
Kim Nichol:I have been a lawyer.
Kim Nichol:When I was working in law as an editor in a legal publishing company, I became a manager.
Kim Nichol:I got promoted to the team I had been managing.
Kim Nichol:So my peers suddenly became.
Kim Nichol:I became their boss.
Kim Nichol:So that created this weirdness around the friendships because we used to complain about our bosses together.
Kim Nichol:Now I was the boss.
Kim Nichol:And the other thing was there was this realization of, oh, I actually have real power over their livelihood.
Kim Nichol:That is a serious responsibility.
Alex Smith:Responsibility, right.
Kim Nichol:I'm responsible for determining, you know, their raises.
Kim Nichol:I can help them get promoted.
Kim Nichol:There was suddenly this realization of, oh, this is a job I really need to think about in a different way than when I was side by side with them.
Kim Nichol:Now I can.
Kim Nichol:I really have to think about this job differently.
Kim Nichol:And so part of that realizing that, oh, when I was a new manager, there was not a lot of support.
Kim Nichol:It was a lot of just figure it out.
Kim Nichol:And I thought it would have been nice if there had been someone or some resource that would have helped me.
Kim Nichol:And then the other piece is just caring about the way that we nurture people and leaders, especially earlier in career, because I really believe, if you've ever heard this quote, I don't know to whom it is attributed.
Kim Nichol:I think it's just one of those universal truths.
Kim Nichol:People don't leave companies, they leave managers.
Kim Nichol:Right.
Kim Nichol:The relationship you have.
Kim Nichol:Yeah, the relationship you have with your manager has such a significant effect on your quality of life as well as on your career and professional development.
Kim Nichol:And so for me, I think that's a very important, a very important role.
Kim Nichol:And so I want to support and help with coaching and with my podcast, people who care about doing a good job and who also want to be more effective in the job.
Kim Nichol:Because if you as a manager are feeling like you don't know what you're doing, you don't know how to have these conversations.
Kim Nichol:If you're losing sleep worrying about how you're going to deal with, you know, the job, then it's going to be less effective and it's also not going to be a great experience for you.
Kim Nichol:So I really like helping people at that stage to be more mindful, to develop their own way of leading, to take a very human centered approach.
Kim Nichol:And they don't have to wait for their company to get on board.
Kim Nichol:Like they can just find my podcast and start learning immediately.
Kim Nichol:And sometimes what I love is people will reach out to me for coaching and then I'll coach them on how to advocate for their work, to sponsor them to work with me.
Kim Nichol:So speaking of sales, right, like sometimes people say, oh, I want to work with you, Kim, I'll just pay out of pocket.
Kim Nichol:And I'll say that's awesome.
Kim Nichol:But also your work might have budget for this and if you'd like, we can talk through how might you sell your organization on sponsoring you and picking up the cost and why this is actually a good thing for you.
Alex Smith:Yeah, I love like, so there's so many places to go.
Alex Smith:I want to know some tactics of what you think you see managers struggle with the most and what things you're, you know, helping them with the most and then having the difficult conversation whether you're an employee or manager.
Alex Smith:I think it works both ways.
Alex Smith:I mean, I'm sure there's ways you can coach an employee to do that and a manager deliver that.
Alex Smith:So I'm interested in those two things.
Alex Smith:Let's talk about before I get into those two things.
Alex Smith:The first, what you just said, like, you know, I could benefit from this.
Alex Smith:I'm sure a lot of people could benefit from this, right?
Alex Smith:Like, I don't know what trainings our managers get.
Alex Smith:I know they go through maybe a program and things like that and there's some coaching, but I don't know if it's like one on one or what, you know, we pay for.
Alex Smith:So what is your sales pitch to a person to then take this in the company and have you been successful?
Alex Smith:Tell me what your approach is there.
Kim Nichol:I love it.
Kim Nichol:I mean, it's always really cool when people are surprised that their company is willing to sponsor them to work with me.
Kim Nichol:And because I work primarily one on one with people, what I tell them is there are lots of different ways to learn and develop the skills you will need to be effective in this job.
Kim Nichol:But what I offer is one on one individual support, which means you're not going to be passively consuming content through an online course or through reading a book or through, you know, a lot of these kind of like bigger, you know, learning styles.
Kim Nichol:You're really going to get that individual one to one coaching and feedback.
Kim Nichol:That means we use our time really efficiently and effectively because we're going to be focused on you and your specific situation, personality, strengths, needs, and the particular dynamics that you're facing.
Kim Nichol:And so for A lot of people, that's how they like to learn.
Kim Nichol:And I've had some people say, well, our company offers this kind of learning program, but I want to supplement that with having a one on one coach.
Kim Nichol:So I like to think of it like that.
Kim Nichol:Like I always want to encourage the people in my world to learn from as many resources as you have available.
Kim Nichol:And if you're the kind of person who thrives and does well with that one on one attention, focus and support, then coaching is an awesome choice.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:So, you know, it's kind of, you're talking to people about, you know, supplementing it.
Alex Smith:It's a different learning style.
Alex Smith:It's one to one, you're getting feedback which can't happen asynchronously or sometimes in a big webinar.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:Like with a group style setting.
Alex Smith:So you're really talking about the person.
Alex Smith:So I think all those different things are great.
Alex Smith:It sounds like you do have some people that have had success just kind of bringing this, you know, internally and maybe surprised that their company actually paid, you know, to do something because I imagine that on the company, what is the company getting?
Alex Smith:They're getting, you know, again, somebody that can really get to know, you know, each individual manager as them, you know, what do they need?
Alex Smith:What are their strengths and weaknesses?
Alex Smith:Like, what do they need to like.
Alex Smith:Because you have a different plan for each person.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:You can't, you know, sometimes offer universal.
Alex Smith:It's not that those things aren't good.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:Like those courses, those trainings, but it's, it's supplementing it with something that's more personalized to the individual manager.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:And they're, you know, kind of what they specifically need.
Alex Smith:Like that I think is what the company is buying into.
Alex Smith:Right?
Kim Nichol:Yeah, well, and it's over time.
Kim Nichol:So I typically work with folks for six months, which means that over six months we also can put a plan in place.
Kim Nichol:What are the things that, you know, are going to be coming up that you want to prepare for?
Kim Nichol:So that includes performance, conversations, feedback conversations, advocacy conversations, capacity planning, conversations, hiring conversations.
Kim Nichol:A lot of what's going to happen is going to happen through conversations.
Kim Nichol:And I, you know, I have also had the experience, experience of coming into a company leading a highly engaging, really fun group training, like a day long intensive.
Kim Nichol:And those are awesome for team building.
Kim Nichol:Those can be really fun for learning.
Kim Nichol:But I also know that people will forget a lot of what they've learned in those experiences.
Kim Nichol:So having that period of time broken out starts to build the skill and the momentum so that it starts to become more integrated and they can start to see more of that positive effect.
Kim Nichol:And I think what a lot of people don't realize is that the fear is if I ask my work to sponsor me or to support me in getting coached, I'm afraid it will reflect badly on me.
Kim Nichol:I'm afraid my boss will think I.
Alex Smith:Don'T know what I'm doing, I'm weak.
Kim Nichol:And that's the fear.
Kim Nichol:Especially if you're a high performer and then you get promoted to this leadership role, because that happens a lot.
Kim Nichol:And then people realize, I don't know how to know if I'm doing a good job.
Kim Nichol:Like, how do I.
Kim Nichol:What's the metric to know if I'm being a good manager?
Kim Nichol:Is it if my people are happy?
Kim Nichol:But what if I make a decision and people aren't happy but it's the right decision?
Kim Nichol:You know, like, there's so much that can be really stressful, especially if you're a very like high achieving person.
Kim Nichol:What's the metric of success when you're a new manager?
Kim Nichol:So helping folks to clarify that for themselves and then realize, oh, actually part of your work is to identify what's the need that will make things better, what's the resource or the approach that will help you do that most effectively.
Kim Nichol:And then remember, your boss wants you to succeed.
Kim Nichol:And if you come with your plan for your professional development, you're actually doing your boss a favor because now they don't have to try to decide and figure out what that will be.
Kim Nichol:There might already be budget set aside for learning and development.
Kim Nichol:And even if there isn't, there might be budget someplace else that your manager or your HR business partner might be delighted to use for this purpose.
Kim Nichol:And sometimes people don't realize they're actually bringing a solution to their manager, to their organization, to their HR business partner by saying, hey, here's the thing I want to get better at.
Kim Nichol:And I've identified the best way for me to do that.
Kim Nichol:You're actually helping them to do their job?
Alex Smith:Yeah, I mean, so much that like, okay, so I can't let you leave without, you know, kind of some of these tough conversations.
Alex Smith:Because you brought up one like, you know, the fear is like, hey, if I'm asking for this, it's looking bad on me, but it's actually helping them, you know, the person above you kind of get more out of you.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:And perform in their role.
Alex Smith:But what about that?
Alex Smith:Yeah, like, you know, the person above you, or maybe even person, Maybe these are different Strategies, maybe there's some similarities, but person, let's say above you in the organizational hierarchy and then even your team, It's a conversation that you know the person is going to get maybe defensive at or like, they won't.
Alex Smith:It's going to be hard feedback for them to hear.
Alex Smith:Just thinks something that maybe is rubbing you the wrong way.
Alex Smith:And we can all think of those difficult conversations at work or difficult situations that maybe we just let fly under the rug and we don't talk about it because we're just like, it's nothing good.
Alex Smith:Like, we've come to the situations maybe you've been in.
Alex Smith:Kim, anything I say isn't going to help this situation.
Alex Smith:Nothing good will come.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:We just kind of just go, okay, let's just use that as a data point and then move on and then see if it comes up again.
Alex Smith:But then it just ends up coming again worse.
Alex Smith:So how do you coach people on ways to deliver feedback either above them or to the people they're working for on their team?
Kim Nichol:Yeah.
Kim Nichol:So first we do want to look at the power dynamic.
Kim Nichol:If it's the person above you or even two levels up, we want to have a, you know, we want to understand kind of like, what is the personality?
Kim Nichol:What is the person care most about?
Kim Nichol:What is it?
Kim Nichol:If they're going to get spiky and defensive.
Kim Nichol:Let's see if we can understand, like, what might be behind that.
Kim Nichol:So the more we can understand what they care about, the better we can position what we want to share with the person that's on our team.
Kim Nichol:Then part of that is about understanding.
Kim Nichol:The reason I'm telling you this is because I want to see you grow and thrive.
Kim Nichol:And this might be hard to hear, and I actually really love that as an opener.
Alex Smith:This might be hard to hear.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Kim Nichol:But the reason I'm telling you this is because I want you to know it's important that you hear this, and it's important that you hear this from me now and not in six months when I'm giving you your performance review.
Kim Nichol:You.
Kim Nichol:Right.
Kim Nichol:It's like that's part of the job, you know?
Kim Nichol:And that will happen.
Kim Nichol:Sometimes you'll have someone and they think they're doing an awesome job and you're thinking, actually, no.
Kim Nichol:Like, we have different ideas about what that success metric looks like and we need to kind of reset and recalibrate here.
Kim Nichol:So if we're doing it from this sense of, I'm doing this with you, I'm doing this for you, I'm not doing this to come in as, you know, like a critic, but actually, because there's something I'm seeing, I'm not sure if you're seeing, but we need to figure this out.
Kim Nichol:That can help to create more of that willingness to receive it.
Kim Nichol:Like, it's a very strategic landscape for that conversation, whether it's to the person who reports up to you or whether it's to the person a level or two you above that you're wanting to influence.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:I once saw Disrupt hr.
Alex Smith:It's kind of like the TED talks for HR and the woman, her title was Stop Feeding Shit Sandwiches.
Alex Smith:And we all know that the.
Alex Smith:Hey, this is what you're doing well, here's what you could work on, but here's what you're doing well, you know, and it's, like, kind of confusing.
Alex Smith:What do I do with it?
Alex Smith:Like, am I doing well?
Alex Smith:Like, but it's like, you know, because the manager is afraid of, like, being seen as, like, a bad guy or something like that.
Alex Smith:And so they kind of like, yeah, it's predictable.
Alex Smith:It's, you know, you're losing sight about, like, what you need to work on.
Alex Smith:The person just hears the good and not the bad, you know, and you know that you kind of leading with like, hey, this is direct.
Alex Smith:Like, this is going to be hard to hear.
Alex Smith:It's going to.
Alex Smith:It's going to sting a little bit.
Alex Smith:But I'm doing it for you.
Alex Smith:I'm doing it because this I'm doing because is such a great word.
Alex Smith:You know, I'm doing it because, you know, I want to see you succeed.
Alex Smith:I know that, you know, if you heard this six months from now and, you know, things got worse, it would be even worse to hear this.
Alex Smith:Right?
Alex Smith:And like, so, like, people know, again, if you can, you know, kind of explain, you know, the information, you know, again, in their interest, just like you were doing it with the yoga teaching and all these other things, it lands a lot more effectively, you know, just.
Kim Nichol:Absolutely.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Kim Nichol:And sometimes, too, I like to remind people that when we're communicating, especially if we're communicating up, it's not always because there's a change we need to see right away, but it's because we're planting a seed and creating a record.
Kim Nichol:So, for example, if you ask your work to sponsor you to go to a conference or work with a coach or do some continuing education, and the work says, no, it's not in the budget.
Kim Nichol:No, we can't do it, you're still building the record of taking that personal responsibility and advocating for what it is that you want.
Kim Nichol:So if it's not available this quarter.
Kim Nichol:Okay, great.
Kim Nichol:Well, when will we be planning for professional development for next year?
Kim Nichol:Can we start to plan for that?
Kim Nichol:So it's in place?
Kim Nichol:Right?
Kim Nichol:Like, you're starting to build that record of.
Kim Nichol:Yeah, I've continued to be very actively engaged and finding out what are the skills I need in order to be ready for that next level.
Kim Nichol:You're starting to have that conversation.
Kim Nichol:That's a good thing.
Kim Nichol:Even if they say no initially, you're still building that relationship and planting seeds for what you'd like to see grow in the future.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:And it's like, I've heard sometimes I'm an ideas person.
Alex Smith:I'm always thinking of new ideas and bringing them up.
Alex Smith:I'm like, and if they don't take them, I'm like, what's the deal?
Alex Smith:Am I not selling this right?
Alex Smith:But sometimes, hey, you know, it's timings off or like, this isn't.
Alex Smith:They know it's like, not going to be a priority right now, but could be in the future.
Alex Smith:And they just want to, you know, kind of, like, make sure to, you know, kind of let me know that they want to help me.
Alex Smith:They're all about bringing my idea up, but they kind of, you know, read the room.
Alex Smith:They know that maybe this is not going to be something that gets done, but, like, they also want to, like, give importance to my idea.
Alex Smith:So I've heard people, I've heard managers and even a current one say, you know, hey, I just.
Alex Smith:I love it.
Alex Smith:This is something I'm going to advocate for.
Alex Smith:I'm going to, you know, bring up all these points, but I want to also give you, let you know the context of what's happening.
Alex Smith:And I don't want to promise something I can't deliver on, you know, something like that.
Alex Smith:So not as opposed to, oh, my God, that's amazing.
Alex Smith:That's great.
Alex Smith:I'm going to freaking.
Alex Smith:I'm going to fight for you.
Alex Smith:I'm going to, you know, do everything I can, then, oh, I'm sorry, it didn't happen.
Alex Smith:And it's like, what, Why?
Alex Smith:I thought you said it was great, like, what's going on here?
Alex Smith:So.
Alex Smith:Yeah, it's just more transparent that way, I find, you know.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Kim Nichol:Yeah.
Kim Nichol:It's the other side of what you just said a moment ago, which is that, like, no, I can't do this.
Kim Nichol:But here's why.
Kim Nichol:Here's the because.
Kim Nichol:Offering that context.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:Well, Kim, I.
Alex Smith:I know we're kind of winding down here.
Alex Smith:So I.
Alex Smith:I love speaking with you.
Alex Smith:I just.
Alex Smith:I take away so much in that, like, just even here, your voice.
Alex Smith:I don't know if people have told you, they just intonation of your voice.
Alex Smith:Very calming.
Alex Smith:I feel calm, you know, like a, you know, almost like a therapy session now.
Alex Smith:But, you know, I.
Alex Smith:I can just see your brains constantly working of, you know, creating a very peaceful environment.
Alex Smith:Easing someone, you said in the beginning, it's like, you know, creating possibilities, you know, helping Simmons see possibilities, which is so interesting because it's the opposite of, you know, solving someone's problem or, you know, coming up with solutions.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:You know, I don't think you.
Alex Smith:You just don't take me as someone that comes into something like, I'm going to fix this.
Alex Smith:Right.
Alex Smith:I'm going.
Alex Smith:I'm going to listen to this.
Alex Smith:I'm going to sit here and.
Alex Smith:And understand this and ask questions and being curious about this.
Alex Smith:But I'm not here to change this.
Alex Smith:I'm not here to, you know.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:Like, revolutionize this.
Alex Smith:I'm going to offer an idea, a different perspective.
Alex Smith:Not the idea or the perspective, you know.
Kim Nichol:Yeah.
Kim Nichol:I think of it like a gardener.
Kim Nichol:Right.
Kim Nichol:A gardener is not trying to fix the plants.
Kim Nichol:It's trying to create an environment in which the plants can grow, and they're designed to grow.
Kim Nichol:So how can we tend to the environment or the soil to help what's coming through and wants to be there?
Kim Nichol:Like, how do we help facilitate the thriving and the growth?
Kim Nichol:It's a really different mindset that I'm going to fix this.
Kim Nichol:Right.
Kim Nichol:It's subtle, but it's.
Kim Nichol:It's a.
Kim Nichol:It's a.
Kim Nichol:It's a different approach.
Alex Smith:Yeah.
Alex Smith:Well, I like Kim.
Alex Smith:We end off every podcast with a fun question about you because I believe, you know, everyone has these superpowers.
Alex Smith:Everyone's unique.
Alex Smith:You know, the more that we get to know about our uniqueness, the more we can connect.
Alex Smith:And so this is just a fun question about Kim.
Alex Smith:So, Kim, if I asked your boyfriend, your closest family members, your closest friends, you know, what's just something that is so totally Kim, this could be something that you do all the time, that only you do.
Alex Smith:This could be an event.
Alex Smith:But if I ask them what is just something that would only and could only happen to you, or something that is just so totally you, what would they tell me about Kim Nicol?
Kim Nichol:I think they would tell you that I am the person that when I'm on a bus or on a train or, you know, waiting at the airport, I'm the person that people come to when they need directions.
Kim Nichol:Like, there's something about me.
Kim Nichol:And, you know, I register, I think, as just, like, approachable.
Kim Nichol:And even if I don't know how to get there, I can probably point you in the right direction.
Kim Nichol:So people come to me for directions, and very often it creates, like, this really, really beautiful moment of connection where the person ends up a little bit better off than when they first.
Alex Smith:That's funny.
Alex Smith:They're like, she looks like she knows where she's going, or she's.
Alex Smith:I love it.
Alex Smith:I don't know if that's like, a face or, you know, a look, but I love it.
Kim Nichol:It's the vibe.
Alex Smith:It's the vibe.
Alex Smith:Like, I'm.
Alex Smith:I don't feel afraid asking.
Alex Smith:She's not going to, you know, make me feel dumb.
Alex Smith:I love it.
Alex Smith:That's.
Alex Smith:That's great.
Alex Smith:Well, Kim, if I'm ever in San Francisco.
Alex Smith:If you're ever in San Francisco area and you bump in, you're going to recognize.
Alex Smith:I mean, you're just listening to the voice, but if you're listening to the conversation next to you could be like, oh, you know, I heard you on the sub by being human.
Alex Smith:And how do you get to the Trocadero or whatever?
Alex Smith:I don't know.
Kim Nichol:Absolutely.
Alex Smith:All right, well, Kim, how can people then just want to connect with you, learn more about becoming a great manager, your podcast, and find out more about you.
Alex Smith:Where should we send them?
Kim Nichol:Yeah, you can go to the new manager podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts or follow me on LinkedIn.
Kim Nichol:I post there about work and life and how to be more mindful and human and nag the gating, all of it.
Alex Smith:I love it.
Alex Smith:Well, Kim, you certainly taught me a great deal.
Alex Smith:I'm looking forward to continuing the relationship and learning from you in the future.
Alex Smith:So thank you.
Alex Smith:Thank you.
Alex Smith:Thank you for coming on today.
Kim Nichol:It's such a pleasure.
Kim Nichol:Alex, it was great chatting with you.
Alex Smith:Awesome.
Alex Smith:Hey, gang, this is Alex.
Alex Smith:Thank you so much for making it to the end.
Alex Smith:If you heard a quote you liked or got a little bit of value, drop me a line or a comment.
Alex Smith:It means the world to me.
Alex Smith:We have great human beings throughout all walks of life every single week who sell through the lens of human connection.
Alex Smith:And I'll see you on the next episode of Sell by Being Human.
Alex Smith:Thank you.
